The Middle East Debate

The other day I was reading comments from a post at one of my favorite sites, Wizbang. While I forget the caption of the thread, I was so fasinated by the comments, I cut them out and would like to share them here. Most of the comments are pro-Isreal, but Andre had a different view:

"Imagine, thinking that Israel isn't always right and has a large part in it's problems. Horrors! Can't ever say anything about Holy Israel. Can't ever suggest that maybe it wasn't the greatest idea to plop a country right in the middle east and drive it's inhabitants out! No, if you do you're an anti-semite! It gets so frustrating to see so many people that just don't get it. There's plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides and the only thing that will stabalize the region is both groups losing their egos and the creation of an economically secure palestinian state. Continuing to pretend that Israel is just this "poor widdle country" being picked on is nonsense. Continuing to pretend that the Arabs in the area don't have valid grievances against Israel is more nonsense. "

Posted by: Andre at July 19, 2006 11:52 AM

It's this type of arrogance that is the reason why nothing will ever change in the middle east until one side is completely destroyed.

Posted by: Andre at July 19, 2006 12:18 PM

Andre said "It's this type of arrogance that is the reason why nothing will ever change in the middle east until one side is completely destroyed."

FINALLY YOU SAY SOMETHING SMART!!!!!!!!!!!
Hezballah wants Israel destroyed. They dont want peace. They dont want a ceasefire. They want ISRAEL DESTROYED. Dont you get it??? Have you ever heard anyone from Hezballah say "we can live in peace with Israel".

Andre go read the poem the Hangman. Who do you think Hezballah will go after if Israel just up and dies? Do you think that they will simply go away or do you think they will go after US??
Stop helping the hangman. Stop being part of the problem. And stop being STUPID. Israel has gave in to every demand over the years except to go find a hole, crawl in and die and it hasnt brought peace yet. Their enemies have shown time and time again they wont stop until Israel is destroyed. Well if I have to choose between Israel suriving or Hezballah I will take Israel. If you love Hezballah so much why dont you go join them and rail against Israel with your buds.
Posted by: retired military at July 19, 2006 02:17 PM

What I know is this. Each side has what they consider to be valid reasons for disliking the other and continuing to engage in violence against the other side. My problem is pretending that Israel is some innocent little country that has never done it's share of dirty deeds. As long as Israel supporters continue to act this way, these actions will continue and more Israelis will die, and more Arabs will die. The SMART way is to concede that BOTH SIDES have sins to atone for and to try to amicably reach a mutual settlement instead of railing on about how Israel is "justified" in whatever actions it takes.

Posted by: Andre at July 19, 2006 02:34 PM

Here's the point. I can go out and find Palestininan scholars that will document the horrors and unfairness of Israel occupation and existance, as easily as you can find Israeli scholars that will take the opposite opinion. But the only thing that matters is whether each side is going to be willing to put that aside in order to stop the killing. Further, when you have poor, desperate people (like many Palestinians) they are going to lash out against those that they feel are responsible for their plight. The Middle East is a big mess that the US, Israel, the palestinians ALL have a part in. To not concede that is to be intellectually dishonest.
Posted by: Andre at July 19, 2006 04:28 PM

Andre"As long as Israel supporters continue to act this way, these actions will continue and more Israelis will die, and more Arabs will die. The SMART way is to concede that BOTH SIDES have sins to atone for and to try to amicably reach a mutual settlement instead of railing on about how Israel is "justified" in whatever actions it takes."

At the risk of repeating myself.

It doesnt matter ONE WHIT what supporters of Israel say, dont say, do, or dont do, acknowledge or dont acknowledge. It never has and it never will.What matters is that Hezballah wants ISRAEL DESTROYED. Now if someone felt that way about you can I see where as you might be a bit preturbed and not act too nicely towards them. THAT IS WHY HEZBALLAH CAME INTO BEING. TO DESTORY ISRAEL. You are trying to equate "a bad deed" from Israel with MASS GENOCIDE.In short you are saying Well Israel shot one of their soldiers so Hezballah should be excused for using 20 nukes on their country.There is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. Israel is a COUNTRY who is a part of the UN and recognized as such. HEZBALLAH IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION WHOSE PURPOSE OF BEING IS TO DESTORY ISRAEL. How freaking DENSE CAN YOU BE????You cant have a discussion with someone who only wants to see you dead and wont stop hounding you until you are dead. You can only do one thing. YOU KILL THEM FIRST. That is the only way PEACE will be established is if one of the two sides is dead.One side is a country.The other side is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

If we were trying to "right the bad acts of the world" we should start with places like Russia, China, and Iran. We arent. We are attempting to resolve a conflict where ONE SIDE WONT STOP UNTIL THE OTHER SIDE IS TOTALLY ANNIHILATED. You cant reason with that you can only kill them before they kill you. GEEZ what an idiot.

Posted by: retired military at July 19, 2006 04:32 PM

Andre
" But the only thing that matters is whether each side is going to be willing to put that aside in order to stop the killing."

EXACTLY GOOD POINT!!!!.

Hezballah ISNT WILLING TO STOP THE KILLING. They have shown this OVER AND OVER AGAIN.Israel is willing but wont be left alone. This has been proven OVER AND OVER AND OVER. So get off your "ITS ISRAEL's FAULT TOO" kick and open your eyes and look at the facts.

If Hezballah disarmed, gave back their Israel captives and moved away from the border of Israel what do you think Israel will do? Continue to attack them? Not likely. They would have to retreat back to their own lines and break off attacks. Hezballah has refused to do this and even your "HOLY OF HOLIES" the UN has stated that they must. They have refused to stop attacking Israel and thave have refused to obey UN DIRECTIVES. Have you seen any UN Directives for Israel to disarm? Stop attacking? ANYTHING? The ANSWER IS NO.
Hezballah is clearly at fault for starting this and clearly at fault for continueing it. Even Ray Charles could see this.

Posted by: retired military at July 19, 2006 04:36 PM

And finally Scott in Ca., (a frequent poster at Wizbang chimed in with this gem:

Andre, grow up. There were nearly a million Jews in the Middle East before Israel existed. Those Jews lived under Arab governments that abused them, restricted their lives and work, made them second class citizens, and barely allowed them to live at all. The creation of Israel was justified for that alone. I do hope you understand the history of the region. Prior to 1920, there were no Arab states in the region. Egypt was the only nominally independent Arab state, and it was under British control until 1922. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq were all created out of provinces of the dismantled Ottoman Empire. They are products of Europeans drawing lines on a map, not of "national" aspriations. These states were created first of all to give the Europeans control over the region, and secondly to give a form of self-determination to the Arab inhabitants of the regions. But what about the Jewish inhabitants of the region? Well, Isreal came along and gave THEM a state. The European diaspora of Jews and the Holocaust are secondary to that. Jews deserve a state in their native region no less than Arabs do. There are 22 Arab states now. We do NOT need a 23rd.

There will not be another Palestinian state. One exists now, Jordan, and it is sufficient to absorb the remaining Arabs living on Jewish land. After this little theatrical production this week, Israel is not going to allow the Arabs to have a state whose borders are 10 miles from TA and Jerusalem. Deal with it.

Posted by: Scott in CA at July 19, 2006 12:38 PM

While I tend to agree with most of what Retired Military and Scott have to say, there is another "element" that was never mentioned that I feel very strongly about. I will get to that in a bit.